Posts by Marvin Shilmer

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

I did not know this ever, even though you conclude that I should.

Then either you're not paying attention or else you're not reading. 5 days ago in this very discussion you were pointed to source material documenting that the instrument at issue is known by Watchtower appointees and is asked for by those appointees for sake of JW parents having the opportunity to sign it. I see no need to repeat myself. See reference 3 in my blog article. You know how to find it.

Are you saying that you know for a fact that Watchtower (appointees) asks for the LOU posted on this thread in connection with medical treatment?

I know this for a fact. I also know for a fact that the critical language of this agreement is documented to have been requested by Watchtower representatives for sake of parents with JW children in need of medical attention.

I disagree, the LOU does not say that.

Because a document does not contain the phrase "terms of service" does not mean it is not a terms of service document as constructed.

At this point you're quibbling and adding nothing to the subject.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

... can you please show from the "Letter of Understanding" that it is an agreement.

A JW parent who signs this letter of understanding is agreeing to terms of service of the institution, one of which is that medical staff may administer blood transfusion if necessary. This is not an agreement to accept blood transfusion. It is an agreement on the terms which the institution will provide services to the patient.

...can you please explain, if you know for a fact , that the same document is being used by the Watchtower?

"Used" has many connotations. The document is known by Watchtower appointees and is asked for by those appointees for sake of JW parents having the opportunity to sign it. But you should know this by now. So what is your question for? Watchtower representatives have also encouraged other medical facilities to develop/adopt similar documents.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

It is very interesting, how on this thread, you refer to the "LOU" as an agreement..
Glad you find it interesting.
On this thread, by referring to the LOU as an agreement, did you think, that some people that tried reading your commentary, could conclude that you meant, that the LOU was an agreement between an entity and a JW parent, that when properly executed is an authorization to administer blood transfusion to a JW child?
People can conclude all sorts of things, but nowhere in this discussion have I suggested the letter of understanding is an agreement authorizing administration of blood transfusion.
I think, that after reading your commentary on this thread and the LOU posted on this thread, some people could reasonably conclude that the LOU posted on this thread is an agreement.
The letter of understanding is (IS!!!) an agreement.
The LOU posted on this thread when properly executed is not an agreement because I have shown that the JW parent is not agreeing to a BT and neither is the WT.
Because a document is not an agreement to administer blood transfusion is not evidence the same document is not an agreement. You're talking nonsense!
I think that the WT should not have to publish material that they do not want published.
Of course Watchtower is free to do as it wants, which is what Watchtower does. But failing to publicize an effective change and leaving a more stringent position as though place is dishonest.
I also think that some WT literature is private for church use only and should not be published if the WT does not want it published.
Glad you have an opinion. Glad you felt free to share it. I disagree. The document in question can have a life and death consequence for a child. When it comes to saving lives I'm willing to publish what a religious organization opts not to.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

Can you please explain why did you publish a link on this thread to WT material that you know WT does not want published?

Because I wanted to and because JWs and those interested in JWs deserve to know this information.

It does not matter to me what Watchtower wants.

Referring to the LOU, you state that it is an agreement

The letter of understanding is an agreement.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

I don't see this as a civil rights issue, more like a moral wrong issue.

The thing that makes this a civil rights issue is the business license under which the concern operates. This is part of the public infrastructure.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

I read your blog before, nothing remarkable, only commentary.

The "commentary" is to publicize that Watchtower advertises one policy (i.e., its 1992 policy) yet has so far not advertised its complicity with the letter of understanding document that is less stringent.

Using the term agreement referring to the document on this thread led me to believe that you were referring to the document as an agreement. Since you did not clarify what you meant but made remarks about the WT not advertizing it, It seemed to me that you meant that it was a secret agreement. Your remarks on this thread about the document also led me to believe that it was a covert document, secretly allowing blood transfusions. I wonder how many people believed that too until I showed that it was not. I see that now that you deny asserting it.

The document in question (i.e., letter of understanding) is an agreement. Watchtower is okay with it. It represents a change from its 1992 position. Watchtower has yet to publicize this less stringent position to rank and file membership. All this has been spelled out. Try reading what I've actually said rather than reading your conclusions into what I've said.

explain

"It is estimated that approximately 1000 Jehovah’s Witnesses die annually worldwide and as many as 100,000 may have died by abstaining from blood transfusions since the blood ban was introduced in 1945."--The Management of Adult Jehovah’s Witnesses in Anaesthesia and Critical Care, by AM Welsh in Australasian Anaesthesia, 2011, pp. 125-132

Watchtower's position on blood transfusion has led to tens of thousands of premature deaths.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

1)You talk a lot. I am not persuaded.

I have more to say in response to that, too.

1. I don't care if you are persuaded, or not.

Questions?

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

2) What is your specific point(s) about WT and their position on BT

I do have more to say in response to that very broad question.

1. Watchtower's position on blood transfusion is irrational.

2. Watchtower's position on blood transfusion is dishonest.

3. Watchtower's position on blood transfusion has led to tens of thousands of premature deaths.

Questions?

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

1)You talk a lot. I am not persuaded. What is your specific point about this document.
2) What is your specific point(s) about WT and their position on BT

My specific point is as my blog article states:

"Completing this document requires no knowledge that 1) a treating physician has record of good cooperation with Jehovah’s Witness patients, 2) a past record of performing a particular “bloodless” procedure along with 3) sentiment that the same procedure will be “no problem” this time. This is a change from Watchtower's published policy dating to 1992.[2]

"The Letter of Understanding document is a written and signed record that parents of a Witness child have been informed their child will be given the best medical treatment available, including transfusion of blood products forbidden under Watchtower doctrine if treating physicians deem it necessary."

Is there something about that you don't understand?

Fact: The posted "Letter of Understanding" is not a WT agreement consenting BT. I have shown that.

I've not asserted that. So what is your point saying this to me?

Fact: As it is written, the LOU when executed by JW is not an authorization for hospital to administer BT. I have shown that.

I've not asserted that. So what is your point saying this to me?

A further point of my blog article addressing the letter of understanding is this:

"Every parent among Jehovah's Witnesses worried about how local Watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this Letter of Understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them. Then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the child's best interests."

Is there anything about that you don't understand?

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

What are you saying?

Fisherman,

Saying?

You made an assertion of defender of truth. Of defender of truth you asserted "you advertize that the WT is secretly consenting to blood transfusions".

The result is defender of truth asked "Where did I say that the Watchtower is consenting to anyone having blood transfusions?"

I'd say defender of truth is saying, please prove your assertion.